3sgte vs 5sfe oil pump

[pureadrenalin]

Since I'm rebuilding my 3sgte race engine, I thought I'd try out the touted bigger 5sfe oil pump.
I'll update this post as the build progresses.
Only problem with this being a true technical comparison between the two pumps, and their effect on the oil pressure of the 3sgte is I’m not doing a strait swap.
I’m redoing the bearings, remote oil filter system, remote oil cooler all at the same time.
All I can do is give you the numbers.

3sgte oil pump, TGP number 15100-88382 ($ TBA)
5sfe oil pump, TGP number 15100-74030 ($ TBA)






There are many differences in the castings. The more you look, the more you see. Its like one of those spot the difference cartoons in the newspapers.
But in all the places it matters, from looking at them they look the same. I guess I will find out when I go to bolt it up.

The main seal hole is the same size, pump gears are the same diameters, but the 3sgte is 13mm thick, 5sfe 15.3mm thick.
So on just a pure volume per revolution difference, this would make the 5sfe pump 18% more than the 3sgte.
On top of that, the 3sgte pump gear has 27 teeth, the 5sfe 25 teeth, so that would be… crap, maths on this one is a little harder. About 8 percent more.
This also means you have to run the third gen timing belt, as it has a tooth or two less.

This means in theory you could vary the increase in flow (and therefore pressure) many ways.
You could just swap on the 5sfe gear/gen3 belt for about 8% increase in flow by spinning the 3sgte pump faster.
You could put on the 5sfe oil pump with the 3sgte gear for about 18% increase in flow.
You could put on the 5sfe oil pump with the 5sfe gear for about 26% increase in flow.

Notice I keep saying flow. I have no Idea on what this will do to oil pressures yet.

[aw11rob]

from what i understand. (which could be wrong)

there is a pressure relief valve, which regulates the pressure?
have stripped down a few st162, st183 and st185 engines with a mate where the pressure relief valve has seized half way up (will try get pics), which led to oil pressure loss and run bearings, all neglected engines, but yeah.

i was leaning towards a new genuine 3s oil pump for my new engine, but havent looked that much into it, so should be intersting to see what this thread comes up with!

do you not need to keep the 3s pulley to keep the timing/cambelt length allgood?

[Boosted]

For comparisons, a new gen 3 oil pump has an RRP of $620.75, while Mark from Manawatu Toyota (Toyspeed sponsor) got it for me for $240. Does not include a gasket, which has an RRP of $21.92 and i got for $12 - part number 1519788460.

[pureadrenalin]

from what i understand. (which could be wrong)

there is a pressure relief valve, which regulates the pressure?
have stripped down a few st162, st183 and st185 engines with a mate where the pressure relief valve has seized half way up (will try get pics), which led to oil pressure loss and run bearings, all neglected engines, but yeah.

i was leaning towards a new genuine 3s oil pump for my new engine, but havent looked that much into it, so should be intersting to see what this thread comes up with!

do you not need to keep the 3s pulley to keep the timing/cambelt length allgood?

Yes, there is a pressure relief valve, but it dosen't regulate pressure, just caps you off at a max of around 70-80psi. But I think the point you are getting at is a valid one, and as such, I will be adding another oil pressure gauge. One will measure at the head, one at the pump.

Yes, if you wanted to keep the same timing belt, you would have to use the 3s pulley.


Man, stealership prices suck!!!

[vvega]

why do you want more flow ?? ..... oil flow is set by clearances,rpm and backpressure ... add more flow than you need .. and you have preasure .... and more drag and less RPM .. and thus power loss
thats why running low viscosity oils give a power increase ... you have less parasitic loss.....
also .. the pumps explode at 10.000 rpm ... been there done that .... speeding up the pump will lower your rev ceiling so peak power will suffer

for a race car
best idea ... baffle the sump properly ... mr2's suffer from oil surge badly and sucking up air at high rpm cause cumulative damage
blueprint your clearances ... and run a low viscosity oil .. i.e 0-30 use gapless rings and a bore that has been properly honed for stainless rings
and TBH if i could ... would slow the pump down .. run shim under bucket .. rev it to 10k with 290 cams ..

[mr2 Tubby]

In theory higher oil pressure does cause slight power loss. However I remember a test in the states on the mr2 forum where someone ditched the 3s pump which pumps around 70psi at 7k for a pump which pumps around 50psi. The test showed a gain of like 3hp or like 2kW which is almost negligible and not worth even worying about. On a high RPM race motor, maybe less oil pressure is better if you can get away with it. On our engines, it's not woth worrying about.

I have a ats high volume pump from the states which is essentialy a 5sfe pump with a 3s gear. I pump 40psi at 2k revs and 60psi at 3k, it never reaches higher than 70psi.
I am runnning a 30psi oil pressure switch with a warning light and for my application I believe this is a better pump. As soon as you start moving the oil pressure is above the 30psi. This on a race track is handy because if you're revs dip under braking, unless they get to idle the the light never comes on.

The hp loss associated with higher oil pressure is not that important, it's essentially the difference between running a 40w or a 50w oil or castrol or some other brand, I challenge anyone to tell the difference.

[vvega]

the hp loss is consequential .. as you said .. its not really that important ... but loss of rpm could well be ..
can i ask you a question ... why do you think more pressure better .. i would understand useing a higher flow pump and a lower viscosity oil

[pureadrenalin]

For me, two main reasons for doing this.
1. I have a lot of things that have pressure drop across them. Remote oil filter (amsoil bypass system, associated lines, external cooler, external oil thermostat)
2. I know what the oil temps get to on these engines while racing, and at those temps, oil is *&%@ thin.

[vvega]

if your oils getting to hot .. put a better cooler on it .... in a lot of cases that fix's the oil pressure drop ..
i guess in essance for me Rpm = more hp .... id rather the extra rpm ... but then ... 10-11000 rpm requires a fairly serious build so dry sumping is a good option ... in that case ...the oil pump is no more

[mr2 Tubby]

if your oils getting to hot .. put a better cooler on it .... in a lot of cases that fix's the oil pressure drop ..
i guess in essance for me Rpm = more hp .... id rather the extra rpm ... but then ... 10-11000 rpm requires a fairly serious build so dry sumping is a good option ... in that case ...the oil pump is no more

True but just changing the pump will not affect rpm what so ever, because one his engine will never rev high enough for it to matter and two because the relief valve on the oil pump is still 70psi, not high enough to matter. Maybe it will slow the buildup of revs a weenie little bit but take 50g off the flywheel and your back where you started, again so small it's negligible.
You're right but your applying theories only really applicable to extremely high revving highly tuned race engines.

[pureadrenalin]

You're right but your applying theories only really applicable to extremely high revving highly tuned race engines.

And sponsored race team $$$, not one sponsored by my wallet.
high rpms also mean big $$$

if your oils getting to hot .. put a better cooler on it ....

Shit, I never thought of that.....
Funny, like most I have to use my spare car dollars as best I can. As such, I have a great oil filtering system, an ok oil cooling system (still not enitrely happy with it), and because I try to do things properly, as I said, an oil thermostat in the system too. Not just some crap trademe system chucked in.
Once again, as already said, because of this, I'm looking to up the flow (therefore pressure) of my oiling system.

I think I'm leaning towards the 5sfe pump with 3sgte cam belt gear

[mr2 Tubby]

Yeah don't use the 5s gear, I'd say you'd have some extreme! pressure if you used that aswell.

[JasonFriday13]

Sorry if you didn't notice, but he's got each one brand new, photos at the top.

[numbers]

Must say, thread delivered

[vvega]

You're right but your applying theories only really applicable to extremely high revving highly tuned race engines.

And sponsored race team $$$, not one sponsored by my wallet.
high rpms also mean big $$$

if your oils getting to hot .. put a better cooler on it ....

Shit, I never thought of that.....
Funny, like most I have to use my spare car dollars as best I can. As such, I have a great oil filtering system, an ok oil cooling system (still not enitrely happy with it), and because I try to do things properly, as I said, an oil thermostat in the system too. Not just some crap trademe system chucked in.
Once again, as already said, because of this, I'm looking to up the flow (therefore pressure) of my oiling system.

I think I'm leaning towards the 5sfe pump with 3sgte cam belt gear

not sure why your been synical .... upping the oil flow wont help make your oil cooler ... in fact it will make it worse .. thermostat only helps get the oil up to temp faster .. if its getting that hot then you just need a bigger cooler
cooling your oil better helps .. lubrication ,oil longevity,hp,Piston cooling and in the long run your pocket
all fitting a bigger pump will do ... is fix what it looks like on the pressure gauge it wont fix any other deficit cause by hot oil if your oil is getting over temp then you'll need to do it anyway's
tubby ... changing the gear would affect pump rpm ... that's what I'm talking about ... but if he is using the 3s pulley .. its irrelevance
"You could put on the 5sfe oil pump with the 3sgte gear for about 18% increase in flow" to me this sounds like the best option no pump rpm increase

im listening to what youve said fully ... im just trying to help