1990 head swap with grey top beams

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Reubenh
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1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby Reubenh » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:21 pm

So I bought this 1990 SW20 recently with a shot clutch... It was the cheapest in NZ at the time $2300. Currently the engine is sitting with the East and West engine mounts only.
There are a huge amount of oil leaks so I decided to take the engine and s54 out in one go, currently it looks like I'll have it out by the weekend (depends on how much stuffing around I do).

I also bought last weekend a 3sge grey top beams I believe off trademe for $100. It was listed as no compression cylinder #1 and that is correct. I pulled the head off and the ringland (I think that's the term) is gone on a section of the piston (I can see the top of the top compression ring). That engine looks perfect condition apart from the score up the bore and the missing bit on the piston. There has also been a bit of rust on the buckets from sitting outside (but with the valve cover on). I might even swap the crank and the bearings over if they fit....

This brings me to the questions I have, may as well list them out...
1. Can a head from a single vvt beams be bolted to a 2nd gen 3sge? (From looking about it people have (on a 5sfe) drilled and tapped a hole underneath the vvt oil supply on the block to feed the vvt solonoid. It seems like I can do the same on this block right?

2. Can I use the buckets from the 2nd gen 3sge on the beams head? 8 of the current buckets have the hardening rusted off so I don't want to use them. The beams ones are shim under bucket while the 2nd gen is shim over I believe. Most people online seem to think that shim over is worse as you can flick them out with high rpm and valve lift but then again there are plenty of people running high rpm without issue.... I'd prefer to get some shim under buckets from some junkyard as Toyota is selling them for $30 each.

3. Piston to valve contact? Doubt it but the pistons are different after all...

4. Which head gasket am I after here, I'm assuming a beams one. I'll try get a MLS gasket.

5. What does the vvt do when not actuated? Does it sit fully retarded or just flap about?

6. Timing belts? Are they the same throughout the generations?

I have some more questions that I'll put now that aren't related to the engine swap so much but are still mechanical.

1. Transmission fluid. I saw in some bgb that hydraulic oil more or less is used, some other places show 75-90 gear oil

2. Removing the axels from the transmission. Do I just pull? Lever? Is there a snapring in there that holds them in?

Any input appreciated

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tw2
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby tw2 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:51 pm

I can't answer most questions but I wouldn't be at all concerned about shim over bucket. I wouldn't change to under bucket either as you can simply run shimless buckets all together if you really wanted. Toyota still supply all of these. I ordered 8 shims when I reshimmed my 3sgte a long time ago.

I think the axles just come out once they are removed from the hubs, drain the fluid first. Just use the grade of transmission fluid in the BGB 75w90, I use redline which seems to work well.

I don't know the specifics of the VVTi but usually it would revert to a base timing when not activated. Might have to compare head gasket pictures to work out which passages you will need. Don't know about valve contact, you can easily test it with putty but its best they never get so out of time anyway.
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Alsw20
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby Alsw20 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:00 pm

Save yourself the headache and fit another gen2 3sge.

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GDII
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby GDII » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:24 pm

Reubenh wrote:So I bought this 1990 SW20 recently with a shot clutch... It was the cheapest in NZ at the time $2300. Currently the engine is sitting with the East and West engine mounts only.
There are a huge amount of oil leaks so I decided to take the engine and s54 out in one go, currently it looks like I'll have it out by the weekend (depends on how much stuffing around I do).

I also bought last weekend a 3sge grey top beams I believe off trademe for $100. It was listed as no compression cylinder #1 and that is correct. I pulled the head off and the ringland (I think that's the term) is gone on a section of the piston (I can see the top of the top compression ring). That engine looks perfect condition apart from the score up the bore and the missing bit on the piston. There has also been a bit of rust on the buckets from sitting outside (but with the valve cover on). I might even swap the crank and the bearings over if they fit....

This brings me to the questions I have, may as well list them out...
1. Can a head from a single vvt beams be bolted to a 2nd gen 3sge? (From looking about it people have (on a 5sfe) drilled and tapped a hole underneath the vvt oil supply on the block to feed the vvt solonoid. It seems like I can do the same on this block right?

2. Can I use the buckets from the 2nd gen 3sge on the beams head? 8 of the current buckets have the hardening rusted off so I don't want to use them. The beams ones are shim under bucket while the 2nd gen is shim over I believe. Most people online seem to think that shim over is worse as you can flick them out with high rpm and valve lift but then again there are plenty of people running high rpm without issue.... I'd prefer to get some shim under buckets from some junkyard as Toyota is selling them for $30 each.

3. Piston to valve contact? Doubt it but the pistons are different after all...

4. Which head gasket am I after here, I'm assuming a beams one. I'll try get a MLS gasket.

5. What does the vvt do when not actuated? Does it sit fully retarded or just flap about?

6. Timing belts? Are they the same throughout the generations?

I have some more questions that I'll put now that aren't related to the engine swap so much but are still mechanical.

1. Transmission fluid. I saw in some bgb that hydraulic oil more or less is used, some other places show 75-90 gear oil

2. Removing the axels from the transmission. Do I just pull? Lever? Is there a snapring in there that holds them in?

Any input appreciated


1. Yes you can bolt it down but you will need to use the BEAMS (GEN4) oil pump and front cover. The sump on the GEN2 isn't very good so putting the GEN4 Sump, oil pump, filter setup would be best. You would pretty much want to use the GEN2 block only. Everything else should be swapped over as the pistons and conrods are very different for the GEN4. If you use the GEN2 rods and pistons you will drop the compression ratio making the advantage of the GEN4 less than what it could be. So get a new piston and new rings for the GEN2 block. This all sounds rather expensive though.
You should be able to drill the block for the VVT. Drilling and tapping the block would be required for the sump/baffles and oil pump things too.
Other information is the GEN4 pistons and rods are different to the other engines. The rods are thinner and lighter which helps make the GEN4 what it is. The pistons will not fit GEN2 rods and vice versa.

2.Best to get new shims seeing as your engine will be fully disassembled.

3.If you put in a new GEN4 piston and use the GEN2 block with the GEN4 rotating assembly then it will be the same as the full GEN4 engine.

4.You should use the OEM GEN4 gasket. I think these are MLS anyway.

5.I don't know the exact answer to this question but if it is not seeing oil pressure it will stay in it's default position. Which based on some research is fully retarded.

6.They are different depending on the engine. Best get a BEAMS cam belt and the rest of the parts in the kit.
1996 AE101 Corolla Sprint NZ New Daily
1990 SW20 MR2 G-Limited
2005 DY3 Demio
1990 EP81 Starlet XL (Sold)
1990 EE90 Corolla XL (Sold)
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Reubenh
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby Reubenh » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:25 am

Thanks guys, especially GDII. You have really answered all haha.

At the bottom of this comment will be an imgur link with some pictures attached. I have decided that since I have gone to all this effort to take the engine out, I may as well do it properly.

I was first planning on using the bottom end from the gen2 but I now think that is a bad idea as it looks like the engine has a few to little oil changes...

The current plan is to rebore the gen4 and buy the missing intake manifold (from.... Somewhere?). I still need to pull the bottom end apart to ensure the bearings, crank etc are still in reasonable condition. Also need to source some oversize beams pistons and rings. I found a site called battlegarage, not sure if there is a better option (locally possibly?).

I have a bunch of options at least as I have 1x fully functional gen2 and a closeish gen4 minus a few parts

Reubenh
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby Reubenh » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:29 am


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GDII
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby GDII » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:02 am

Yeah lots of effort for little to no gain or less gain.

You took the engine out the top?!!!! You crazy.

You would need to find an intake manifold from a Caldina Grey top or Celica/MR2 Redtop. It is possible to bolt up the GEN3 NA or the Caldina GEN4 3SGTE intake manifold to the GEN4 NA head but I don't know how that would affect the way the engine works.

GEN2 engines almost all look like that on the inside. Mine is worse with 400,000km on it.
1996 AE101 Corolla Sprint NZ New Daily
1990 SW20 MR2 G-Limited
2005 DY3 Demio
1990 EP81 Starlet XL (Sold)
1990 EE90 Corolla XL (Sold)
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Reubenh
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby Reubenh » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:16 pm

The oil leaks from the valve cover is epic. The whole engine has a thick layer of grease over it.
I have a 3s-fe Corona that I did a head gasket in earlier this year and under the valve cover was a bit better than this gen2 ge (and I know the 3sfe was abused before I bought it).

Why do you think it's crazy taking the engine out the top? It was a big mission I must say.

Another alternative to a fresh intake manifold is using some 4age itbs. I already have them too (that was a $150 investment for another whole engine haha). Looks like I need some fancy expensive adapter unless I 3d print one but that takes a lot of effort...
In other news the flywheel has been lightened a tad and I have a bunch of gaskets from some American eBay seller (4 day shipping what the heck)

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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby Alsw20 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:39 pm

Standard practice on an MR2 is unbolting the engine/subframe and then lifting the rest of the car off it, leaving the engine/subframe on the ground.

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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby GDII » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:40 pm

Because taking it out the bottom is SOOOO much easier. I see you had to take off the exhaust manifold to do so.

Drop engine, lift car, slide engine out. Done.

ITBs won't really fit without chopping the fire wall or making some funky curved intake runner for each cylinder. Then you have to buy an aftermarket ECU and tune it and ITBs suck to tune. There goes a good part of $3k before you've can even driven it.
1996 AE101 Corolla Sprint NZ New Daily
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2005 DY3 Demio
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby Alsw20 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:45 pm

This is my old turbo. Engine on ground, car in air.

Image

Image

Reubenh
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby Reubenh » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:39 pm

Yep I think dropping the engine out the bottom is the way to go for next time..

So you think I'd need to cut a hole in the firewall to fit itbs? You mean the bit between the engine and the boot right. (Suppose that could be called the rear firewall.

Im convinced I can get the tuning and ECU side of an itb conversion done quickly and cheaply. I have been following a project online called speeduino. I have had two engines running on it, one terribly and another runs okay, a few bugs but it's a 4agte haha. I already have one.. itbs should be able to be tuned using the tps only or I could add a vacuum balance bar which apparently works okay too. I think I'll just grab a factory manifold and ECU, start with that.

I forgot to say earlier, the axels did "just tap out" it was a big mission though, fairly sure they haven't been off since 1990 in Japan.

@GDII you were saying earlier that the pistons and rods are what really makes the beams engines go, can you elaborate on that? Surely it doesn't make any more power from that. Is it because the piston and rods are lighter resulting is a quicker revving engine?

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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby tw2 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:44 pm

How are you guys lifting the car without a car lift? I wrapped a chain around the front cross member to lift the car over the engine on the st-185 with an engine hoist... is this possible with the mr2?
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby GDII » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:51 pm

Reubenh wrote:Yep I think dropping the engine out the bottom is the way to go for next time..

So you think I'd need to cut a hole in the firewall to fit itbs? You mean the bit between the engine and the boot right. (Suppose that could be called the rear firewall.

Im convinced I can get the tuning and ECU side of an itb conversion done quickly and cheaply. I have been following a project online called speeduino. I have had two engines running on it, one terribly and another runs okay, a few bugs but it's a 4agte haha. I already have one.. itbs should be able to be tuned using the tps only or I could add a vacuum balance bar which apparently works okay too. I think I'll just grab a factory manifold and ECU, start with that.

I forgot to say earlier, the axels did "just tap out" it was a big mission though, fairly sure they haven't been off since 1990 in Japan.

@GDII you were saying earlier that the pistons and rods are what really makes the beams engines go, can you elaborate on that? Surely it doesn't make any more power from that. Is it because the piston and rods are lighter resulting is a quicker revving engine?


Yes lighter pistons and rods. There are other things but this is one of the mechanical differences between the earlier GEN engines.
1996 AE101 Corolla Sprint NZ New Daily
1990 SW20 MR2 G-Limited
2005 DY3 Demio
1990 EP81 Starlet XL (Sold)
1990 EE90 Corolla XL (Sold)
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Re: 1990 head swap with grey top beams

Postby GDII » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:54 pm

tw2 wrote:How are you guys lifting the car without a car lift? I wrapped a chain around the front cross member to lift the car over the engine on the st-185 with an engine hoist... is this possible with the mr2?

Drop the engine down, put the east and west engine mount bolts back in the car and strap a suitable strop around them and the engine crane hook. The engine crane ideally would go in from the the side of the car rather than the back as the bumper, boot and rear spoiler get in the way. The back of an MR2 isn't that heavy without the engine. There are other ways but this is the best. Hooking the engine crane up to the tow hooks under the rear bumper can be done but you ruin the bumper skin.
1996 AE101 Corolla Sprint NZ New Daily
1990 SW20 MR2 G-Limited
2005 DY3 Demio
1990 EP81 Starlet XL (Sold)
1990 EE90 Corolla XL (Sold)
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sw20glimited/