Mickeyduck's machines

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mickeyduck » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:15 pm

Mint...! :D :D :D

This turned up on the courier today, so the little red beastie will soon gain that engine lid garnish.
Mind you it may be a few weeks as I intend to go carefully and do a good job of it. I'll only get one shot and this stuff is surprisingly hard to come by.

Much appreciate your help in the matter, Colin...! :D :D :D

Got it home in the back of the 86. Measures 1400 x 635 cm x 1.6mm thick, 4.7 mm diameter holes.
A retired slice of specialised hospital bed. Just what the Doctor ordered. :mrgreen:

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#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
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100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby *84vvt » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:03 pm

Happy to help out :D
I might have to catch a ride in the Said Red Beast if the track day rules allow .
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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mickeyduck » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:28 pm

*84vvt wrote:Happy to help out :D
I might have to catch a ride in the Said Red Beast if the track day rules allow .


Absolutely! :D

Now getting back to suspension for a minute...

I fitted the BC Gold coil-overs recently and have found that I've had to raise the ride height a fair bit to prevent the rear tyres from hitting the guards if I hit a bad bump (pothole etc) during hard cornering, especially if putting the hammer down (which makes the back end squat down a fair bit).

Contrast with the KO coil-overs which were hard as hell, could ride a lot lower, corner flatter and faster, and not have the tyres hit the guards. And not squat when under WOT. Heck if I sat on a front guard, there was literally NO noticeable drop...! :shock:

So, spring rates.

Kei Office (KO) were 8k Front, 14k Rear.
BC Gold standard are 5k Front, 8k Rear.

Let's compare the two types of coil-over, mathematically.

Firstly it's important to remember that stiffer rear suspension = more oversteer, softer rear suspension = more understeer. Try fitting an SW rear sway bar to an AW11 and you'll see what I mean. :lol:

People who design suspension to be "safe" lean towards an understeer setup whereas people who design suspension for things like serious sports cars or for racing (responsive handling) lean towards oversteer.

Kei Office coil-overs were designed for track use. The ratio of spring stiffness front to rear shows this is the case. An 8:14 ratio = 1:1.75

BC Gold coil-overs are designed as a mass market swap-in for road cars. They can help you on a track but their target market isn't the same as Kei Office. The ratio of spring stiffness is 5:8 = 1:1.6 so you have less responsive steering and less chance of oversteer.

Hence the SW has felt wallowy and fat to me since fitting the BC's. Hasn't helped my confidence while driving it on twisty back roads. It used to feel utterly planted and very precise. Albeit rather harsh.

Now let's look at the overall stiffness of the springs and what that means.

Comparing the front springs we have 8k for the KO versus 5k for the BC.
5 / 8 = 0.625 which means the front springs on the BC are 62.5% the stiffness of the KO front springs. A lot softer eh.

The rear springs are even more interesting. 14k for the KO versus 8k for the BC.
8 / 14 = 0.571 which means the BC rears are only 57.1% the stiffness of the KO. Waaaaaaaay softer...!

Thanks to the far softer rear springs the back end squats down a lot now under wide open throttle (WOT) whereas it didn't squat at all with the KO. This means the rear ride height has had to be raised significantly. And that makes the car feel fat, not planted when cornering.

It also means there's way more "body roll" so no wonder the rear tyres can tap the guards if I hit a bump while cornering hard... :roll:

I can firm up the shocks to reduce the chance of tyres hitting guards but at the end of the day what the car really needs is a set of stiffer springs. Firming up the shocks doesn't prevent the car leaning over on a corner, compressing the springs on one side. Firming up the shocks doesn't prevent the rear end squatting right down when you plant your foot and lay down 500 rwhp. And firming up the shocks doesn't help the wheels get back to the ground if the bumps have thrown them up off the deck. Firmer shocks return to Earth slower so they don't help put down the power on a bumpy road.

What might be ideal then? One option would be to leave the soft BC setup as is, with its overly-high ride height at the rear, and fit heavier sway bars. Then I could soften the shocks a little, achieve a nice comfortable ride, put the power down well on a bumpy road, and corner pretty fast too.

However because the thing has 18" rims I've had to raise the back end so much that it now rides about an inch (2.5cm) higher than a standard SW...! That's measured from the ground to the rear cross-member. Still looks ok thanks to the big rims but actually it feels wrong in the corners. Simply doesn't feel planted like it used to. Too high. Doesn't fill me with confidence. So I need to drop it and that means stiffer springs.

Did the maths on various combinations.
8:14 = 1:1.75 Front:Rear ratio for the KO coil-overs.
5:8 = 1:1.6 currently. Standard BC Gold springs for an SW.
5:10 = 1:2 = oversteer to the max and stuff-all gain in terms of firmness on the rear, so ride height would still be way too much.
6:10 = 1:1.66 = reasonable turn-in but still too soft for this car, rear ride height would still be too much.
6:12 = 1:2 = oversteer to the max but the rear ride height would be much better.
7:12 = 1:1.71 = almost the same steering balance as with the KO, which felt excellent in that regard.
In fact 1.71 / 1.75 = 0.977 so the turn-in and handling precision would be about 98% as good as the KO setup was. That's assuming I get other things like camber and toe-in set up as well as can be too of course. Yep, looks like a 7k front and 12k rear spring rate might just be the go.

When I compare the stiffness of a custom 7k BC front spring to the KO 8k one, 7 / 8 = 0.875 so it's 87.5% as stiff as the KO.
Comparing a custom 12k BC rear spring with a 14k KO one, 12 / 14 = 0.857 so that's 85.7% as stiff as the KO.

I reckon if I fit 7k front and 12k rear springs to the BC Golds I will be able to drop the ride again, almost as low as the KO coil-overs allowed, making for a much more planted car. And because the front-rear spring rate ratio is basically the same as the KO, it should mean the car responds very much like it used to. What I'll end up with is a teeny bit softer ride, and shocks that are far more adjustable than the KO units (32 steps of adjustment for the BC versus 4 steps with the KO).

For less than $300 that sounds like a no-brainer to me. :mrgreen:

So I've ordered a set of springs and because the 7k front ones are not the usual thing here in NZ I'll be waiting a couple of months for them to turn up. But that's fine. It should still allow me a couple of months to swap them in, mess around with ride height, camber and toe-in again and get the thing working well for the long bumpy squiggly trip down to Fielding and the manic blitzfest around Manfield race track when we get there. :twisted:

Very much looking forward to it...!

Gives me time to sort out that engine lid heat-shield... :idea:
And rebuild the AW's rear suspension perhaps. And make it new engine mount inserts. And replace its naffed muffler. Maybe.
Cars. What they can't do to us eh? :lol: :cry: :D :evil: 8) :oops: :? :mrgreen:

Unless you drive a Micra or Prius, or are in charge of the road rules and looking to drop the speed limits instead of preventing the sale of crap tyres, in which case you likely don't give a rat's... :P

Meanwhile the SW seems perfectly drivable now even if it does feel fat and wallowy to me.
Probably feels planted as hell to anyone else, LOL.
Guess I've been driving lowered AW's far too long eh? :lol:

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#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
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Financial Club Member since 2004 and thanks to *84vvt and co-conspirators, Life Member since April 2017 8)
100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby Swampy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:09 pm

I probably need safe rear suspension and the gen 2 subframe then Charlie (thats why i went AWD) haha your insights are spot on.
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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mickeyduck » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:33 pm

Well I've been driving the red thing here and there when time avails. It's another level up that thing, it's a hoot. A couple of Sundays ago Michelle and I went down the line for lunch in it and I might share the experience with a few folk as a run in the not too distant future. But first I need to get it ready for the Club's upcoming 25th anniversary meet at Manfield, Fielding.

Got some custom springs made and brought in from the USA for the BC Golds recently and having finally replaced our back fence (about 50 metres of it, was a bit of a crash-fitness-course ha ha) I decided to swap in those new springs last weekend.

To ensure I got the camber and toe-in just as was I scored 2 x magnetic laser levels from M10, and after putting the car on blocks / stands I put tape on the floor where the front and rear of each arch was, then with a laser on each disc rotor, shot a mark so I could track the wheel alignment. Did another vertical mark too for the camber. Worked out SWeet, as I was easily able to bolt it all back together exactly the same as it had come apart, after swapping in the new springs. Of course that setup may change a little yet seeing as I'm also dropping the ride height back down, but it does mean I have a SWeet starting point. If you ever want to rip out your suspension and put it back together exactly the same, it works.

The red dot from the laser was a lot easier to see than in this pic. But you get the idea. Also, as it's stuck to the rotor (milled flat by the pads) it's easy as to remove the laser and refit it, and shoot the exact same marks. I tested this before unbolting the struts...

Toe-in - front and back of the wheel arch:

DSCF8465.JPG


Camber - vertical laser shot:

DSCF8468.JPG


I upgraded the front springs from a 5k rate to a 7k rate:

DSCF8481.JPG


DSCF8483.JPG


It's an easy enough thing to do: https://www.google.com/search?https://w ... Kr476UftKw

I'll be upgrading the rear from 8k to 12k rate. Unfortunately it turns out that the reason one of our guys sold me these coil-overs was because the right rear was leaking. As I've experienced, a stuffed rear shock can try to throw you right off the road in an MR2, not cool...! So I'm getting a pair of replacement rear shocks from the USA via air freight so they get here in time for Manfield. Should be here within a week or two.

Then I'll be doing this to the rear struts as well (easy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvUCG-xDQcg

Leaky shock, right rear:

DSCF8469.JPG


The brake pads should have enough meat on them to handle the trip down and back with a bit of track time thrown in. Might be another story after that weekend of course. :lol: But I would like to refresh the brake fluid and at the moment am still stuck with the fact that the right front Brembo is actually a left front, so bleeding it is a bit impossible as it's upside down. :shock: Spotted a JDM DC5 Honda Integra type R wrecking on Trademe but the guy had already sold the callipers (damn). Will have to hunt some down I guess. Or do some weird stuff to bleed the brakes for now... :?

The left one is ok, it has the bleed nipple at the top ha ha:

DSCF8491.JPG


Pads still have a bit of meat. You hardly even touch the brakes to pull that thing up anyway, the front rotors being from a V8 tourer race car. 330mm instead of the OEM 255mm. Locking up the fronts is more the worry. :oops: :lol: Must rehash the rear rotors too one day... :idea:

DSCF8493.JPG


Couple of other minor things to do before Fielding but that car's basically been running real well, nothing's been breaking or giving me grief (though either the starter relay or the starter solenoid needs replacing). So I'm looking forward to getting that suspension sorted and doing some back road testing to ensure it's set up right for the trip to Fielding and time on track at Manfield.

REALLY looking forward to that weekend. In fact the trip there and back will be just as much fun as the track day I reckon. Them back roads are epic...! :twisted:
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When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mknz » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:47 pm

Can you shuffle the other caliper around or take the rotor off to bleed it? Looks like your line is long enough. I imagine that when they were installed they were bleed.

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mickeyduck » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:07 am

Yeah that's what Scott did to bleed the brakes, and what I'll have to do if I can't find a replacement. Bit of a drama just to bleed the brakes though eh Michael. Not ideal.
#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
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100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:03 pm

It looks like the detail is there in the casting for the bleed nipple, have you looked at getting it machined? Shouldn't be too hard, trickiest thing would be getting the sealing detail at the base of the hole right, but I imagine any half decent machining shop would have no problem.

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby GDII » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:23 am

Malcolm wrote:It looks like the detail is there in the casting for the bleed nipple, have you looked at getting it machined? Shouldn't be too hard, trickiest thing would be getting the sealing detail at the base of the hole right, but I imagine any half decent machining shop would have no problem.

Would that also mean getting the banjo fitting moved to the other fitting point for the brake line? Would make sense to get the bleed points moved. Seems odd there are two right hand calipers.
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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mickeyduck » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:It looks like the detail is there in the casting for the bleed nipple, have you looked at getting it machined? Shouldn't be too hard, trickiest thing would be getting the sealing detail at the base of the hole right, but I imagine any half decent machining shop would have no problem.


That was already attempted before I bought the car Malcolm. Didn't work out, sadly.

Pretty sure I can bleed the brakes and get new fluid right through the system without getting any air in there. Even without taking the calliper off and inverting it.

But it would be nice to have the right setup on the car one day...

I hope we get to see your Mk 1.5 at Manfield mate? AWesome little rocket ship that thing. I've not seen it walk away from me in quite some time. Was SH16 on the way back from Atiu if I remember rightly...
#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
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100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby Im6bl » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:17 pm

DC5 Type r calipers are like Evo 5 > 9 calipers except they dont have the "cross over tube" drilled and tapped. You should be able to drill out the caliper at the top and relocate the bleed nipple ( was quite common on cars that used evo calipers to swap the bleeders and the cross over tube)
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Also how are you getting the coilovers from USA to NZ nzpost recently changed there rules for air freighting coilovers ( a friend of mine had to get them sent back ) so be warned they might try tell you its not possible.

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:41 pm

mickeyduck wrote:I hope we get to see your Mk 1.5 at Manfield mate? AWesome little rocket ship that thing. I've not seen it walk away from me in quite some time. Was SH16 on the way back from Atiu if I remember rightly...

Pretty unlikely sadly, sitting around unused has made the list grow longer rather than shorter, and although I get a bit of time for it here and there, there are still a few too many other things of higher priority to make any real headway on it.

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mickeyduck » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:05 am

Thanks for the info Stephen. As I said the previous owner attempted to mod the calliper like that but somehow it didn't work out. I might take it apart and see what can be done after Manfield (or after this summer). Would be happier to have the real deal on there though.

Coilovers are being brought in by Redline Performance so they won't fail to get here.

Malcolm - well and truly understandable what with more pressing priorities but a pity nonetheless. If there were a way for you to get there, do a stint on track and get home again, I'm sure it would remind you just how much fun that little beast is... :wink: I am very glad you still own the thing anyway mate. Some things can never be replaced eh. Especially when you've invested so much time and ingenuity.

Well I've been feeling fluey again with a splitting headache but it's coming right thank goodness so I'm going to have a crack at sorting the engine lid liner.

Might fit the oil cooler again too actually before this mission to Manfield. I just don't like the way it leaves ugly oil in the system when I do a change. Might have to figure a way to overcome that issue...
#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
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Financial Club Member since 2004 and thanks to *84vvt and co-conspirators, Life Member since April 2017 8)
100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mickeyduck » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:20 pm

WOOHOO...! :D

Just got back from Strong Bros Wreckers in Onehunga.

"Sorry we don't have a pair of front DC5 Brembo callipers, we only have a right front..."

YES...!

Not quite as pretty as the ones on the car now, but tested pre sale, guaranteed for 6 months and the bleed nipples point up!

DSCF8516.JPG


Meanwhile, engine lid liner a work in progress...
#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
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Financial Club Member since 2004 and thanks to *84vvt and co-conspirators, Life Member since April 2017 8)
100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: Mickeyduck's machines

Postby mickeyduck » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:33 pm

Finally found a place here in NZ able to supply the correct Urethane for making AW11 engine mount inserts too. So I've scored what I need to get the job done. Glad to have found this outfit as the place I bought it off for Isaac's AW decided they would only sell it to me if I bought a 6-pack. I only need 2 "trial" packs to make a set of engine mounts. Not 6. Didn't really feel like paying 3 times the price of what I actually need. Doofers. :roll:

So good on these other fellas. If you're looking to make a replacement set of engine mounts for your AW try these guys for your urethane:

https://www.sculpturesupplies.co.nz/product/simpact-60a :D

Manufacturer's page: https://www.smooth-on.com/products/simpact-60a/

It cost me $129 for it couriered to me in Auckland. If you're elsewhere it will cost a little more on the courier. But hey, beats having stuffed engine mounts (which will naff your exhaust amongst other things).

Worst case you could buy it from the manufacturer direct and hope it actually gets to you (and doesn't end up binned by Customs or NZ Posts's You-Shop). But it's no cheaper to buy it direct anyway once you look at the exchange rate and the cost of freight, even through You-Shop.

Once the SW is back on its feet and the weather warms up a bit I'm looking forward to doing the AW's mounts cos it's been putting me off driving it as the naffed mounts are destroying the exhaust system. More work, and more good outcome to look forward to. Just need some time and some dry warm weather!

DSCF8513.JPG
#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
Retired - President 2012 - 2018
Retired - Committee Member 2009 - 2018
Retired - Auckland Area Coordinator 2009 - 2018
Retired - Webmaster, Forum Host & Admin 2010 - 2018 - Now it's mknz

Financial Club Member since 2004 and thanks to *84vvt and co-conspirators, Life Member since April 2017 8)
100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted: