TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

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Statek
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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby Statek » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:20 pm

I thought I saw Paul Woods doing one in a SW20 for someone on MR2OC (facebook) a while back. Can't find it, but did find this AW:
1986 Toyota MR2 AW11 20v ST - SOLD
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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby JasonFriday13 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:00 pm

Alsw20 wrote:It was a red top.

Oh, I thought it was a blacktop, my bad.
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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby Alsw20 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:01 pm

He did a blacktop 3SGE into an old rwd Carina.

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby mknz » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:15 pm

Idk about AWs but I have never run out of room in the SW. I thought having a fast back large items could fit in the CRX? Nice Altezza though

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby TNR » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:05 pm

Swampy wrote:Well damn. Have you taken the Altezza to some twisties yet? I wanna know how it drives compared to the 2 :)


I have now. I don't have an SW20 so any comparisons will be to my AW11.

So overall it handles very well and is enjoyable to drive. Turn in is sharper on the AW11, however the Altezza is still very sharp for a 4 door sedan (sharper than E46 325i).
In all situations the Altezza has more grip than the AW11 (turn in, mid corner, corner exit), I guess this is to be expected since it has 215 section tires compared to the AW11's 185's. Altezza also has the stock torsion LSD. I've found the Altezza tends to start giving up from the back rather than the front which I like, I've only had under steer once and that was when I was testing it on a tight round a bout.

It feels very stable, quiet and well built. Steering weight is perfect, brakes are strong but pedal feel is too soft in my opinion, gear change feeling is quite unique and nice.
The AW11 feels like a Japanese sports car form the 80's.. noisy, not the greatest sense of stability (in stock form), the brake feel (or maybe the weight) is nicer though. Oh and the AW11 has no power steering so its a lot heavier, however the feedback is just great on the AW (Altezza is decent in terms of feel).

The one bad characteristic I've noticed with the Altezza is that in high speed corners it can tend to feel a bit nervous, this is emphasized in the rain. Its strange since when you push it, it still has a lot of grip but it just feels a bit unsettled. When you do want it to go a bit sideways though it is easy to control and fun.

In terms of acceleration it is quite a bit faster than the AW11 (Altezza has 210Hp). The MR-2 isn't too bad since its so light but being an auto its very slow of the mark.
And by the way the 3SGE Black top loves to rev just as much as the NA 4AGE, its basically sleeping below 4,500RPM.

So I would say that its a perfect 4 door daily driver which is still enjoyable, however the MR-2 is a completely different experience. The induction sound of the 4AGE behind you, the great agility from being lightweight and just the experience of a sports car is its own thing. When I drive the AW11 now I don't even mind the wind/road noise at all, it feels refreshing and great fun switching between them.

I'm happy to own both.

Well that's it for my weird comparison between a 2003 Altezza RS200 and 1985 MR-2. Sorry I did not really comment on the AW11 at the limits, I have not pushed it that hard yet (and probably shouldn't considering how short it is and where the engine is located).
Last edited by TNR on Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby TNR » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:08 pm

mknz wrote:Idk about AWs but I have never run out of room in the SW. I thought having a fast back large items could fit in the CRX? Nice Altezza though


The CRX wasn't too bad, but I didn't like the 2 seat restriction. Also you can't really carry boxes or suitcases in it, though it being a fastback/hatch back did make it a little better.

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby TNR » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:05 pm

The MR-2 is dead.

I was out shooting pics in it tonight, at some point It overheated while driving and I didn't catch it till it was too late. Only explanation can be that I didn't bleed it thoroughly enough, it had not shown any signs of overheating after bleeding until this. I spent a long time bleeding the system as per the manual but obviously did not do it properly or long enough, what an idiot :/
It was running great too after the suspension refresh and tune up.

(Note: It overheated when I first bought it too but I caught it well before the needle reached the red, this is what made me bleed the system in the first place).

At least I got some decent pics, these were taken not long before it died and are the last photos :
Image

Cool night to die on..
Image


Rego on hold...
Last edited by TNR on Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby Swampy » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:16 pm

That's a bummer. Hopefully you get it back on the road soon.

You got to really get all the air out, coolant changes are one of those jobs where you've got to set aside a lot of time.

Lovely pictures btw.
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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby mknz » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:54 pm

How sure are you it's dead? Sometimes those 4As can take so stupid amounts of abuse

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby TNR » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:14 pm

mknz wrote:How sure are you it's dead? Sometimes those 4As can take so stupid amounts of abuse


Your right, about that:


I thought it would be seized. Its not all good thought, when I added water to the cooling system it seemed a bit murky/brown like when its contaminated with combustion gasses. Also there was some steam and water drops in the exhaust so I'm pretty sure the head gasket is blown.
As far as other stuff such as bearings, warping, tolerances.. I think it will need some work.

I have some ideas regarding possible options but to be honest nothing is going to happen any time soon, especially since I just bought the Altezza.

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby mickeyduck » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:47 am

Definitely a blown head gasket. And yes you likely didn't bleed it quite right. They are simple to do once you know how but if you haven't read the BGB (factory manual) which is stickied in the Members area viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12549 - or been shown by someone who knows how to do it properly then it's very easy to get wrong. One minor thing (such as not turning the heater to full hot while the ingnition is on before bleeding) can make it a fail. It won't be seized - they are very hardy - but don't drive it or it will just get worse and worse. The head will need removing, skimming (or replacing) and refitting. Not a huge drama on an n.a. perhaps but a total PITA on a supercharger.

Bummer. I know your pain first hand thanks to someone that didn't do it right on an AW I later bought. It would occasionally boil over after a damn good thrashing. I do hope you get it sorted. They are so much fun to drive...
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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby mickeyduck » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:30 am

Been reading your comparison...

An n.a. auto AW is nowhere near as much fun as a manual (or even an auto) supercharger - and a facelift supercharger has different bits here and there in terms of suspension, brakes etc compared to a pre facelift n.a. Subtle things but still...

That said, with the right tyres (just need to be properly good tyres such as Potenzas) and with the right wheel alignment (massively important, must have at least 5mm toe in on the rear) once you understand and trust the car you will find you can put it through massively hard cornering a LOT faster than almost anything else. Certainly faster than the Altezza. And I know Altezzas can handle very well, having been passenger in a fully kitted-out one at significant pace through tight twisties.

Once you understand that gently adding throttle all the way through a corner makes an AW simply grip better and get through the corner faster (with the right tyres) you will discover they are simply a stroke of genius.

I have owned 3 AW's over the last twelve years, and driven them as my daily up until about a year ago, pushing them as far as I could on pretty-much every corner I ever came to, and practicing stopping in as short a distance as possible without locking up the fronts whenever it was safe to do so (coming off the motorway etc). They are a true drivers car as there is tons of feedback, and you drive as if you have strapped the thing on and it is an extension of yourself. No power steering, ABS, traction control, none of that crap. AWesome.

I now drive a manual 86GT every day. I am amazed at how similar its handling is to an AW11, despite being front engined. As if someone at Toyota had owned an AW and decided to engineer the thing to respond and feel in a very similar manner. No wonder people rave about the 86's handling and the fact it's so much fun to drive, even if it is a bit under powered (like an n.a. AW). And like an n.a. AW you need to drive an 86 above 4,500rpm if you want it to behave as it was intended to... The 86 is truly brilliant on a twisty road. And just like an AW (yes even an n.a. auto one) the power is perfectly adequate to keep the car nicely balanced through the corners on a twisty road - and thereby maintain a surprisingly high pace.

Please note I am actually commending the AW here by saying if it has good tyres and a driver that understands and trusts it, it's just as good as a brand new 86.

I believe I could probably out-drive the 86 in my old bog standard AW supercharger. In fact, in either the manual or the auto... In fact if there is one thing I would dearly love to change on the 86 - even more than adding a supercharger - it is to make the "Off" buttons for traction and stability control actually turn that crap totally off so I can drive around corners without that stuff interfering!

So I hope you get around to fixing your AW. And I hope you eventually learn how they can be driven - and how much they can be enjoyed.

AW's are AWesome! :twisted:

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When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby TNR » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:27 am

mickeyduck wrote:Definitely a blown head gasket. And yes you likely didn't bleed it quite right. They are simple to do once you know how but if you haven't read the BGB (factory manual) which is stickied in the Members area http://mr2.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12549 - or been shown by someone who knows how to do it properly then it's very easy to get wrong. One minor thing (such as not turning the heater to full hot while the ingnition is on before bleeding) can make it a fail. It won't be seized - they are very hardy - but don't drive it or it will just get worse and worse. The head will need removing, skimming (or replacing) and refitting. Not a huge drama on an n.a. perhaps but a total PITA on a supercharger.

Bummer. I know your pain first hand thanks to someone that didn't do it right on an AW I later bought. It would occasionally boil over after a damn good thrashing. I do hope you get it sorted. They are so much fun to drive...


Yeah it has been parked up, I think it would just use coolant too quickly to be usable now anyway plus causing further damage like you mentioned. I know I must seem like a total idiot blowing my engine like this, but I thought I did everything right. I followed this video and yes did have the heater fully on.


Anyway obviously something went wrong.

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby TNR » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:31 am

mickeyduck wrote:Been reading your comparison...

An n.a. auto AW is nowhere near as much fun as a manual (or even an auto) supercharger - and a facelift supercharger has different bits here and there in terms of suspension, brakes etc compared to a pre facelift n.a. Subtle things but still...

That said, with the right tyres (just need to be properly good tyres such as Potenzas) and with the right wheel alignment (massively important, must have at least 5mm toe in on the rear) once you understand and trust the car you will find you can put it through massively hard cornering a LOT faster than almost anything else. Certainly faster than the Altezza. And I know Altezzas can handle very well, having been passenger in a fully kitted-out one at significant pace through tight twisties.

Once you understand that gently adding throttle all the way through a corner makes an AW simply grip better and get through the corner faster (with the right tyres) you will discover they are simply a stroke of genius.

I have owned 3 AW's over the last twelve years, and driven them as my daily up until about a year ago, pushing them as far as I could on pretty-much every corner I ever came to, and practicing stopping in as short a distance as possible without locking up the fronts whenever it was safe to do so (coming off the motorway etc). They are a true drivers car as there is tons of feedback, and you drive as if you have strapped the thing on and it is an extension of yourself. No power steering, ABS, traction control, none of that crap. AWesome.

I now drive a manual 86GT every day. I am amazed at how similar its handling is to an AW11, despite being front engined. As if someone at Toyota had owned an AW and decided to engineer the thing to respond and feel in a very similar manner. No wonder people rave about the 86's handling and the fact it's so much fun to drive, even if it is a bit under powered (like an n.a. AW). And like an n.a. AW you need to drive an 86 above 4,500rpm if you want it to behave as it was intended to... The 86 is truly brilliant on a twisty road. And just like an AW (yes even an n.a. auto one) the power is perfectly adequate to keep the car nicely balanced through the corners on a twisty road - and thereby maintain a surprisingly high pace.

Please note I am actually commending the AW here by saying if it has good tyres and a driver that understands and trusts it, it's just as good as a brand new 86.

I believe I could probably out-drive the 86 in my old bog standard AW supercharger. In fact, in either the manual or the auto... In fact if there is one thing I would dearly love to change on the 86 - even more than adding a supercharger - it is to make the "Off" buttons for traction and stability control actually turn that crap totally off so I can drive around corners without that stuff interfering!

So I hope you get around to fixing your AW. And I hope you eventually learn how they can be driven - and how much they can be enjoyed.

AW's are AWesome! :twisted:



Yeah now you make me wish I had a running AW even more now..

Oh well, at least when its reborn it will have a manual transmission. And yes I still havn't learnt how to drive the AW11 to its limits, or even close. I think I need to take it to a track day after I get it running again. I did notice that accelerating through a corner makes it feel nice and planted, but yeah a lot to learn.
Last edited by TNR on Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: TNR's AW11 (Finally!)

Postby Statek » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:35 am

I've done my AW plenty of times, and a few SWs too, but always feel nervous about it. The best way (for me) to be sure, is after the first good bleed, take it for a blat up and down the road constantly watching the temp gauge so it doesn't start going above half way. Then let the car sit overnight (or until it cools), top up, rinse and repeat until no more water needs to be added. Even then, I'm still paranoid and watch the gauge like a hawk.
Because of my silvertop swap, I actually have two senders (and two gauges), one just before the thermostat and one just after. This way I can see when the thermostat opens (if at all) as the second gauge sits dead until flow starts going through - I find it quite handy, especially at the track 8) Definitely want to retain this after my next engine swap too.
1986 Toyota MR2 AW11 20v ST - SOLD
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