AKL run to the Lighthouse now 22 April 2018

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mickeyduck
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AKL run to the Lighthouse now 22 April 2018

Post by mickeyduck »

OK, by popular demand... Let's do the run to the lighthouse. 8)

This is one of my all time favourite roads. As evidenced by the fact that I did this run to get together with my favourite people and celebrate my 50th birthday. :mrgreen:

http://mr2.org.nz/phpbb3/viewtopic.php? ... lighthouse

https://youtu.be/dfNnFP1OVV4



After nearly a decade of leading Auckland runs I've "retired" from the position of Auckland AC, but I can't simply abandon my post and I want to find an apprentice or two to take over. I'm thinking it'd be good to have one fella cater for runs north of Auckland, another guy sorting runs down south, alternating each month to ease the load.

I have a couple of guys in mind (not that I've discussed anything with them yet) and I have plenty of run maps to share with them if they are interested. Anyway, rock up and see what gives... Cos things are going to change in the Auckland area.

Who knows? This may well be the last run I lead as Auckland AC. :shock:

In fact I'm looking to lead this run to the lighthouse and let someone else lead the way back.

OK so the next trick is, we need these AWesome roads to be dry and we need SWeet weather. Cos I want to be able to go for it and have an AWesome day! So let's aim for a day and see what the weather ends up doing. We'll postpone if we need to, but hopefully all goes to plan. (Watch this thread as we near the day).

The next 2 Sundays look pretty good but some of us need to let our finances recover a bit after the AGM.

Let's meet at BP on SH1 Drury at 10am Sunday 15th April.

*** EDIT: due to bad weather, now aiming for Sunday 22nd. ***

:arrow: Be there! :idea:

I'll bring my BBQ. So bring sausages / steaks / kebabs, bread, sauce, something to drink...

And an appetite - for good kai and some seriously good time behind the wheel of an MR2! :twisted:
Screen Shot 2018-03-29 at 7.27.30 pm.png
#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
Retired - President 2012 - 2018
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Financial Club Member since 2004 and thanks to *84vvt and co-conspirators, Life Member since April 2017 8)
100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by mknz »

Keen! Might have a rear swaybar in by then

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Mr-Paulio
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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by Mr-Paulio »

Yes! Keen! :twisted:
Although... the wife and I both have separate party's the night before (I can control myself, but if she can't someone needs to look after our boy that day)

Other than that I just need to sort my suspension set up. Which was mean on the last run! (Apart from the body rub) But I messed with it and now it feels like I'm driving a boat! With so much steering slop.
(Tomorrows mission)
So I am maybe 90% ATM :D
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'86 AW11 20V (Sold) :(
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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by psyguy »

I have a run with the two-wheeled boys on Saturday... Oh what a weekend :twisted:

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by chief1eye »

Sounds like another mission for the Green Hornet!!!

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by mickeyduck »

Nice! :D

OK Paul, you need to be there mate. :!:
Mr-Paulio wrote:...I just need to sort my suspension set up. Which was mean on the last run! (Apart from the body rub) But I messed with it and now it feels like I'm driving a boat!
You adjusting it yourself Paul?

What I find seems to work well on an AW is basically like this:

Rear: some camber and between 5mm and 10mm toe-in (OEM is 5mm).
I tend to run slightly more than the OEM rear toe-in as it allows me to push harder through the corners because the loaded (outside) rear wheel tries to turn the back of the car in, instead of letting it hang out. Though it can also make for increased rear bump-steer but you get used to that.
The amount of camber should basically offset the toe-in so the tyre tread wears evenly.
Toe-in wears the outer edge of the tread, increased camber reduces that tendency.

Front: tiny bit of camber and between 1mm and 2mm toe-in (OEM).
If you add camber on the front you will need to increase the toe-in.
However the OEM setup on the front makes the car very responsive and turn in easily.

It can also make the car feel unstable and tail-happy if the rear sway bar or shocks are too stiff compared to the front.
Once the camber and toe-in are set up, adjust a sway bar (if adjustable) or the shocks to get the car nicely balanced when pushing it hard through the corners.
Stiffer on the front will understeer. Stiffer on the rear will oversteer.

To measure the toe-in I clamp a straight thing on the outside of each wheel, near the bottom of the wheel.
I use bits of wood but ideally I'd be using small (25mm?) box section steel, slightly longer than a tyre's diameter.
Car on the deck. Make a mark on the straight thing in line with the front and rear edges of the tyre.
Get a tape measure and note the distance between the rear marks and then measure the distance between the front marks.
Rear distance minus front distance = toe-in, in mm.

The OEM front adjusters give about 10mm toe-in per turn so it doesn't take much, but you can dial it in quite well.
If using the OEM camber adjusters in the struts (yay for AW's) be aware that as you add camber the geometry changes and it will add an overdose of to-in too, which you will then need to reduce a little. I don't know but I suspect that coil-overs may also do the same, as they are going to effect the rest of the suspension components and their geometry as it's all attached...

When I ran a lot of front camber to prevent tyre rub on the guards, I had to run about the same toe-in on the front as on the rear. The car felt stable and could be thrown through the corners reasonably well (as when you rode shotgun through Woodcock's Rd) but it was far less responsive and I had to be quite rough with it to get it to turn in, pretty-much sliding all 4 wheels. With the front camber much nearer vertical and the front toe-in nearer 1mm (OEM) the car feels immensely more responsive and turns in very easily, requiring a light hand on the wheel. In fact it felt unstable and skittish last weekend until I firmed up the front shocks. Now it feels brilliant.

To sum up: even if the car is lowered or on firmer than standard suspension then in my experience it still needs camber and toe-in set up close to OEM spec and after that it's just a case of balancing things by way of sway bar or shock adjustment. Firmer front sway bar or shocks = less oversteer.

(Put an SW rear sway bar in a totally standard AW and see what happens LOL. Flat flat flat flat SNAP). :lol:

If you have a heavier engine in the back you may need to firm up the front shocks or stiffen the front sway bar to reduce the oversteer introduced by the heavier back end. So if you firmed up the back end to stop body roll caused by that extra weight, you are likely to end up with a very firm ride by the time you firm up the front even more.

Anyway I know this isn't really the right place for a post about wheel alignment and handling but it is actually relevant to whether you make it to the run so stuff it, there it is. :lol:

I hope it helps.

(Club members will still find this info if using Search to suss out wheel alignment anyway)

:arrow: Be there Paul! :idea:

It will be great to see the rest of you guys on this run too! :D
#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
Retired - President 2012 - 2018
Retired - Committee Member 2009 - 2018
Retired - Auckland Area Coordinator 2009 - 2018
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Financial Club Member since 2004 and thanks to *84vvt and co-conspirators, Life Member since April 2017 8)
100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by Mr-Paulio »

Ooh. Lots of info there to read!
Mostly it's camber and height. But it does seem like I have quite a bit of toe out on the front now.
So I will have a play around as per your suggestions also. I think I've just worked out most of the problem is due to the top plate pillow bearings binding up. So when I steer the whole top of the shock and spring swivel also!
'89 AW11 V6 Turbo (350BHP & 380Ft/lbs!) :twisted:
'86 AW11 20V (Sold) :(
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'91 SW20 Turbo (Sold) :(
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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by psyguy »

You may have opened a can of worms by posting here about wheel alignment Charlie, ha ha! :wink:
Kudos for all the info though :D
mickeyduck wrote: I tend to run slightly more than the OEM rear toe-in as it allows me to push harder through the corners because the loaded (outside) rear wheel tries to turn the back of the car in, instead of letting it hang out.
What I have found through experimentation is that running LESS toe-in at the rear helps me with pushing harder through the corners. When I enquired from an expert on wheel alignment about this finding he explained to me that as the rear wheel/suspension gets loaded in a corner the (outer) wheel will have a tendency to DECREASE toe-in (i.e. increase toe-out) which helps turn the car. You find this principle used on big trucks with multi-wheel steering where the rear wheels turn in the OPPOSITE direction of the fronts.
This setup is a bit counter-intuitive so takes getting used to what the rear end is doing as at first when you turn-in into a corner it feels like the rear end wants to go off the road for a split-second but as the rear outer wheel gets loaded from the cornering forces it then starts feeling like the car is on rails :twisted:

Yes, you can get bad inner circumference tyre wear from this setup, but the joys of effectively having "four-wheel steering" are worth it for me! :P

BTW the associated tyre wear from toe-out (and neg camber) is why I like running symmetrical-tread tyres so I can swap them around for longevity (hence the choice of Toyo T1R). On my 350Z I have a-symmetrical Potenzas and they are ready to be thrown to rubbish due to inner side wear even though the rest of the tyre tread is still well withing spec. :x

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by mickeyduck »

psyguy wrote:What I have found through experimentation is that running LESS toe-in at the rear helps me with pushing harder through the corners. When I enquired from an expert on wheel alignment about this finding he explained to me that as the rear wheel/suspension gets loaded in a corner the (outer) wheel will have a tendency to DECREASE toe-in (i.e. increase toe-out) which helps turn the car.
Yep so you are saying less toe-in on the rear makes the rear of the car assist in making the car tend towards a spin (turn). Which is why I do the opposite. On an AW 1mm toe-in on the front ensures that it will want to turn in no problem. Increasing rear toe-in doesn't affect the car's turn-in ability (nose response / pointiness), it affects how the back end follows the nose. So more toe-in on the rear means you can push harder through the corners before the back end wants to let go.

The other way to achieve the same thing is to simply run wider tyres on the rear, which I did back when Potenzas were available in the right sizes. I ran 185 front and 205 rear and with OEM toe-in that made for a very balanced car as the extra 10% rubber on the rear matched the extra 10% weight.
psyguy wrote:On my 350Z I have a-symmetrical Potenzas and they are ready to be thrown to rubbish due to inner side wear even though the rest of the tyre tread is still well withing spec. :x
That suggests to me that they need a little more toe-in, to make them wear evenly across the tread. :wink:

Anyway - here's to a great run to the Lighthouse! Remember to bring that BBQ food. 8)
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100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by MR2GUY »

I'll be there! 8)

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by psyguy »

mickeyduck wrote: Yep so you are saying less toe-in on the rear makes the rear of the car assist in making the car tend towards a spin (turn).
Correct. That's why I said it's a bit counter-intuitive. I run 0-deg 10-min at the rear. I tried setting more toe-in on rear wheels but could not get used to bumpiness it caused, in fact it scared me a few times on rough roads. What I get with less toe-in is a more compliant and progressive feel where the rear end at the edge of traction starts lightly sliding giving me a sort of a feedback I like. My car also has slightly less body roll this way or at least it feels that way. All up makes me have more confidence/predictability.
I suppose it's partly a matter of preference what setup works best for you.

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by mickeyduck »

MR2GUY wrote:I'll be there! 8)
Mint! 8)

Hey Ivor - rear wheel alignment on a motorcycle... now THAT can make for some interesting handling eh mate? Like when my Kawasaki triple used to wrench the rear wheel out of skew... :lol:
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100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by mickeyduck »

psyguy wrote:I suppose it's partly a matter of preference what setup works best for you.
And I certainly cannot fault your ability to keep pace on a run Ivor. What works for you, on your car, works well for you indeed. :mrgreen:
#8^) Charlie the certified Westie
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100+ MR2OCNZ runs and counting... When going hard, good rubber's your best protection against unwanted accidents. Buy good tyres!
When you're nearing the end of the drag-strip and you have no 'chute, you may as well keep your foot to the floor... Live life. There ain't no second pass. :twisted:

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by psyguy »

mickeyduck wrote: Hey Ivor - rear wheel alignment on a motorcycle... now THAT can make for some interesting handling eh mate? Like when my Kawasaki triple used to wrench the rear wheel out of skew... :lol:
Ha ha sounds like you have some good stories to tell Charlie!

I've ever only had shaft-drive motorbikes so no problems with wheel alignment :D

But I did have "professional" shops mount directional tires the wrong way round :shock:

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Re: AKL run to the Lighthouse

Post by Speedhog »

Madaz May make an appearance.

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